15 Years Lawyering in Oregon Cannabis, and Beyond – Canna Law Blog™

Final month, we hosted a webinar on federal hashish legislation and coverage in 2026. Whereas issues aren’t the place we’d like them to be, it’s superb to think about every thing that has occurred through the years. From a lawyering perspective, it’s virtually unbelievable.

I’ve labored as a enterprise lawyer within the hashish business for over 15 years. It’s been an extended, unusual journey because the poet mentioned. And I’m grateful for it. Under is a long-form piece on the way it all went down.

2011

I used to be a second-year lawyer at a enterprise agency downtown when a medical marijuana dispensary proprietor got here by way of our workplace. (Again then, no one mentioned “hashish.”) His store was right here in Portland, with a develop within the again, and the proprietor had been handed alongside by two different legislation corporations that felt uncomfortable advising him. This gentleman had obtained a chapter trustee’s discover on his door, advising that his landlord was in a Chapter 7 (I feel). He desperately needed to remain within the constructing. Possibly even purchase it, someway.

We seemed on the lawyer ethics guidelines, referred to as the state bar affiliation, learn the Ogden memo, and so forth., and it was unclear whether or not we may help the consumer—even concerning compliance with state and native legal guidelines. It was unclear whether or not our malpractice insurance coverage prolonged protection. It was unclear whether or not our financial institution would take the deposits. It was unclear if his enterprise even complied with Oregon legislation to start with. Every little thing was unclear; nobody would opine. The first Cole memo issued that summer time, making issues much more complicated. However, the solutions weren’t clearly “no” and my boss invited me to attempt. I had no drawback with any of it.

I ended up serving to the consumer attain a deal to pay money hire to the Trustee—which might by no means occur at this level: the fee half is wild; the money protocol, outrageous—after which I began serving to him with enterprise agreements and every thing else. Again then, there have been nearly no legal professionals engaged on non-criminal hashish points. He began sending me business referrals, one after one other. It was a loopy time—the work was much less refined but additionally tougher in some respects than a lot of what we do right now.

Looks as if all of these individuals are gone now.

2012

Oregon was not licensing medical marijuana dispensaries, however folks had been boldly opening collective-style storefronts, just like the man I simply talked about, ostensibly underneath the state’s decades-old medical marijuana statute. That legislation was not designed for commerce, in any respect. The coverage thought was to easily to confer an affirmative protection to “sufferers” and “caregivers” from prosecution underneath state legislation for hashish possession and use. That’s so far as it went.

A whole lot of the companies I handled in these days had self-organized as non-profits and collectives and such, as borrowed from the California mannequin. I couldn’t discover accountants for them, or something actually. It was such a multitude.

That fall, Oregon’s Measure 80 narrowly misplaced on the polls, 47% to 53%, whereas Colorado and Washington handed legalization measures. Measure 80 would have legalized hashish for grownup use statewide in Oregon, established a licensing and taxation system, and so forth.—which in the end occurred just a few years later underneath Measure 91. Elsewhere, business pioneers like California’s Harborside dispensary (who would later develop into a consumer; then go public; then fail) had been going at it with the feds. In these days, every thing was a rock combat.

2013

The Oregon legislature handed a legislation referred to as HB 3460 that August, directing the Oregon Well being Authority (OHA) to write down guidelines and launch a registry system for medical marijuana operators. This was a giant deal! Purchasers appeared nervous: there was no business foyer to talk of, and every thing coming from Salem appeared reactive.

The second Cole Memo additionally issued that summer time, in response to the pending Washington and Colorado grownup use applications. It felt like issues had been altering fairly quick. My boutique enterprise legislation agency “merged” with a mid-sized legislation agency downtown that catered to monetary establishments and didn’t like hashish. I continued to quietly do the work. A whole lot of that work was unsupervised; someway all of it labored out.

2014

OHA issued its guidelines, which had been skeletal, unenforced and ass-backwards on sure issues. There have been no hashish testing necessities; no grandfathering protections for present storefront operators; a rule that individuals who had been convicted for “manufacture or supply of [cannabis]” couldn’t be “liable for” a hashish retailer (?!); and I can’t even bear in mind what else. However I recall shoppers coming to us with so many questions and issues which had been primarily unanswerable, as a result of the framework wasn’t there. That November, Measure 91 handed, legalizing hashish for grownup use in Oregon. Lastly.

On the federal aspect, the Division of the Treasury issued the FinCen Memo on “BSA Expectations Relating to Marijuana-Associated Companies.” This was accompanied by one other DOJ memo titled Steering Relating to Marijuana Associated Monetary Crimes, and a DOJ memo on “Marijuana Points in Indian Nation.” The latter two directives had been rescinded 4 years later by Lawyer Basic Jeff Periods, however the FinCen Memo is someway nonetheless in impact. Greater than a decade later, I might discover myself advising banks, credit score unions and even the federal authorities on that cumbersome steerage.

2015

The Oregon legislature began messing with Measure 91 virtually instantly in drastic methods (e.g. tax construction, residency requirement). A few of my shoppers began to ramp as much as transition into the OLCC program, however many sat again and waited. Individuals had been getting greater and bolder on the medical aspect. We started to see a proliferation of medical marijuana processors and “wholesalers” round this time, though none of this was contemplated within the guidelines. A lot of loopy tales.

The Oregon State Supreme Court docket amended the lawyer ethics guidelines in February, to expressly enable us legal professionals to work with marijuana enterprise “concerning Oregon’s marijuana-related legal guidelines.” Most legal professionals remained on the sidelines, although. I left my outdated agency in June, and began the Portland workplace of what would develop into Harris Sliwoski LLP. Lots of people appeared to suppose that was a loopy transfer, however it was actually enjoyable. I began writing intensively right here on the weblog and I wrote the first of 100 columns for the Portland Mercury. I ended doing litigation completely.

Grownup use and possession turned authorized on July 1, which was awkward within the sense that OLCC had not but licensed shops. The state finally capitulated and allowed early gross sales by way of current medical dispensaries on October 1. The entire system was nonetheless vexing from a contracts perspective—the hashish being purchased and offered all got here in by way of the OHA provide chain, which meant it was theoretically the property of medical marijuana sufferers, at the very least to begin.

I labored with one other lawyer in my agency on one of many OLCC guidelines advisory committees, and the primary batch of the OLCC program guidelines dropped in October of 2015. The Fee made a valiant effort there, however enterprise acumen was missing. The “monetary curiosity” and “residency” guidelines had been terribly complicated, and primary business ideas weren’t addressed, from convertible notes to safety pursuits. The Metropolis of Portland was even worse.

Of us began lining as much as submit OLCC functions on January 1, 2016. I recall organizing and incorporating a dizzying variety of little corporations within the months main as much as that date. Again then, a typical setup was somebody with property, a man who knew the right way to develop hashish (at all times a man), and possibly an investor with $200,000 or so. Actually easy stuff. I testified earlier than varied cities and counties with respect to cannabis-related zoning ordinance proposals. A few of these hearings had been well-run and respectful; just a few went off the rails.

2016

We muddled by way of licensing and the system started to launch. I recall one in every of our producer (develop) shoppers being informed they had been the “third licensee within the state.” The legislature started to fiddle with the system additional, together with by way of repeal of the residency requirement (HB 4014). It’s laborious to overstate how vital this was: no different jurisdiction on this planet had a hashish program the place non-residents could possibly be homeowners. Calls began coming in from in every single place and folks couldn’t appear to get their minds round it. However the guidelines had been clear: you might be from Oregon or California or Israel or Spain. You might be from Mars.

We answered plenty of questions on federal legislation enforcement again then, which hardly occurs anymore. The worry issue ticked up considerably once more in November, when Donald Trump was elected President. That very same election evening, California, Nevada, Maine and Massachusetts all went leisure (and Arkansas, Florida and North Dakota all adopted medical applications), making the state/federal dynamic extra dissonant than ever. Domestically, increasingly OHA program contributors made their approach into the OLCC system, whereas others stayed put or went off the grid altogether.

OHA lastly acquired its act collectively and began licensing medical marijuana processors, though the medical program was clearly on the way in which out. The Oregon Division of Agriculture (ODA) handed a key legislation to propel the stalled state hemp program, and we had just a few shoppers begin in on that. They’d logistical issues you wouldn’t imagine, together with discovering seeds.

2017

Jeff Periods was confirmed as Lawyer Basic to kick off the 12 months. Individuals will say that didn’t scare anybody, however I’m right here to inform you that funding slowed a bit. By mid-year, although, the OLCC program started to hit its stride. Issues felt largely “constructed” for the primary time, even when a testing lab bottleneck persevered, with different program kinks.

By December 2017, there have been virtually 900 licensed farms in Oregon, and the M&A market began to achieve steam. There was plenty of press at this level about oversupply, unlicensed hashish and diversion. The faddish and RICO lawsuits had been in full swing. Right here on the legislation agency, we had been additionally fielding fewer calls from “medical marijuana growers,” though it was identified that people had been nonetheless stacking playing cards and every thing else. That mentioned, all of these 90-plant medical grows had been going the way in which of the buffalo.

Elsewhere, lots of the newer companies had been already failing and people began suing each other in earnest. Reporters nonetheless referred to as each time lawsuits had been filed. I recall posting adverts for litigators, and questioning if OLCC licensees would work out the right way to become profitable within the regulated market. I additionally sat for a collection of lunches with legal professionals in mid-sized and enormous legislation corporations who had been poking across the Oregon house. Lastly, I took just a few calls from the FBI and U.S. Attorneys on client-related investigations. Not nice.

On the hemp aspect, we noticed increasingly shoppers pursuing CBD gross sales, which had been coming into vogue however confusion in regards to the 2014 Farm Invoice and every thing else. Beneath Oregon’s pilot program folks acquired crops within the floor, nevertheless. And with federal dialogue looming, it felt like hemp was lastly on the way in which.

Elsewhere, I turned an proprietor on the legislation agency on January 1, and we opened places of work in San Francisco and Los Angeles, which had been extremely productive for a time. That summer time, I used to be cynically sued in circuit courtroom for civil “conspiracy” by a poorly supervised colleague at a big legislation agency. The allegations had been based mostly on recommendation he assumed I’d given to a hashish consumer. That declare went nowhere, however I didn’t admire it.

I started instructing a Hashish Regulation & Coverage course within the fall, which continued over a five-year interval. We had Earl Blumenauer come converse and issues like that. In 2017, it was the second or third such class on provide nationwide. Class was offered out after which some.

2018

Jeff Periods kicked off the 12 months by rescinding the Cole Memo, which acquired folks jittery as soon as once more. The native “oversupply” dialog was coming to a head, such that Oregon U.S. Lawyer Billy Williams felt the necessity to writer a memo of his personal. Instantly thereafter, the OLCC “paused” its consumption of marijuana license functions—probably because of the memo, but additionally as a result of the Fee was simply to this point behind.

The Canadian invasion was additionally in full swing at this level. A lot of our native shoppers had been rolling up on the Canadian Inventory Trade by way of reverse mergers, or questioning how to do that, or speaking with somebody about doing it. Different shoppers despised the entire thing. And nonetheless different shoppers WERE the Canadians. International {dollars} had been additionally pouring into different western states by this level, largely California and Nevada.

I can not inform you what number of mergers, reverse mergers, choice agreements, inventory sale agreements, asset buy agreements, convertible debt agreements, and so forth. and so forth. we papered round this time—at the same time as costs tanked. It was extremely dynamic and extremely quick. Round this era, we additionally had been employed by a collection of large-cap, bellwether U.S. corporations attempting to grasp the CBD market and what could possibly be carried out there. A lot of opinion work, with company campus visits. We did a collection of celeb collabs, too; just a few of these are nonetheless going sturdy.

Outdoors of Oregon, I doubt there was ever an even bigger 12 months for hashish than 2018. California commenced its grownup use market, the U.S. legalized hemp by way of the 2018 Farm Invoice and Michigan turned the primary midwestern state to go full rec. Internationally, Canada legalized marijuana federally, Mexico introduced its plan to do the identical, and the U.N. introduced it might revisit hashish scheduling. Oh, and Jeff Periods was despatched on down the highway. It was superior.

2019

Hemp was in all probability the most important story regionally in 2019. Practically 2,000 growers registered to plant over 63,000 acres, a virtually 6x acreage improve from the 12 months prior. Then the issues got here. A lot of the hemp went unharvested on account of unhealthy climate and inexperience. Costs additionally fell by way of the ground alongside the availability chain, from seeds to completed merchandise. Our workplace dealt with extra litigation on the hemp aspect than on the THC aspect. And folks began to make use of ODA licenses as cowl for diversion, relatively than persisting within the OHA (medical marijuana) system.

Federally, USDA appeared to gradual stroll the principles, and FDA was as ineffective as ever. The ODA’s adoption of a “complete THC” testing commonplace was additionally laborious for operators. Nationwide, the CBD craze was in full swing. A few of the nation’s largest grocers, distributors and CPG corporations employed us and flew us round, after consumers and advertising departments acquired forward of themselves. The excessive level was being flown to D.C. and advising the Nationwide Credit score Union Administration on steerage we helped write for hemp banking.

On the THC aspect, the Oregon legislature lastly handed a legislation to curtail the award of hashish manufacturing licenses, bowing to strain from all sides. It was too late to have a lot affect, though the trouble did create a robust secondary marketplace for producer license transfers (which we proceed to commerce in right now). The legislature handed one other forward-looking legislation to permit hashish exports; the concept right here was to arrange native growers for the top of prohibition. Lastly, vaping got here into the regulatory crosshairs, leading to extra litigation.

2019 was the primary 12 months that the OLCC market appeared to actually settle out and there was much less compliance work than earlier than. We had paralegals overlaying many of the licensing. Past that, it was simply offers and offers and offers.

2020

This was the primary 12 months that Oregon handed the $1 billion gross sales mark (cresting at $1.1 billion), pushed by COVID-related elements. The pool of retail licensees continued to develop, however different license classes remained static. OLCC lastly streamlined its utility course of to some extent, a theme the Fee would return to in future years. OLCC additionally adopted a short-lived “repair it or ticket” strategy to sure guidelines violations, and enacted a ban on sure vape merchandise.

We had been nonetheless doing plenty of M&A piece, most memorably for a personal fairness agency that swooped in to purchase and function expansive verticals; and which 5 years later, we put into receivership. Different shoppers plodded alongside; however with costs nonetheless low, it was a quantity proposition up and down the availability chain. Total, Oregon hashish M&A extremely peaked round this time. We additionally noticed renewed curiosity from tribes, together with intergovernmental agreements between the Cow Creek Tribe and Oregon.

Wildfires had been horrible within the fall, with one in each 5 licensed marijuana companies (or 408 companies) in evacuation protocols. A lot of producers had been compelled off website completely. The fires hit the hemp grows laborious too, as they had been closely concentrated within the affected areas. It was a horrible time for a lot of outside hemp and marijuana licensees, lots of whom misplaced crops and tools, and had been un- or underinsured.

In contrast to the THC market, the hemp market continued to sputter. Biomass pricing hovered at $2.50 or much less per pound, versus $40 to $45 simply two years prior. We nonetheless had many litigations within the workplace arising from companies failing and buyers shedding cash. A few of the work additionally concerned SBA lending points and chapter proceedings, which was novel within the hashish house.

I had been writing about worldwide hashish on the weblog for some time, and various attention-grabbing issues got here by way of the workplace. One among them required us to register with DOJ underneath the International Brokers Registration Act; others concerned battling Customs and Border Patrol on wrongly embargoed shipments. The agency was uniquely fitted to all of that, with our worldwide commerce legal professionals lending a hand. I felt I used to be studying rather a lot.

Lastly, this was the 12 months that Oregon’s Measure 109 and Measure 110 handed. I used to be considerably essential of Measure 109, which created a cottage psilocybin companies business, and which we’d advise on in coming years. Measure 110 decriminalized possession of all medicine in small quantities. That experiment faltered, although, and the legislature rolled it again 4 years later. They did go away in provisions that siphoned off marijuana tax income for habit therapy companies.

2021

Pricing and controlled marijuana gross sales plateaued in 2021, though the pool of licensed retailers continued to develop, from 719 to 760. The variety of producers additionally elevated from 1,177 to 1,388—which wasn’t wanted in any respect. However OLCC’s streamlined licensing course of was reducing by way of the backlog, following a really pregnant three-year “pause.” All in all, the business continued to develop, regardless of a difficult labor market.

Throughout this time, we helped folks purchase and promote producer licenses within the $250K – $300K vary. A number of years later, costs would fall as little as $30K. One among our shoppers liquidated one thing like 6 licenses on adjoining tax tons round this time; and although his timing was impeccable, he was arrested driving weed round Texas shortly thereafter. He went bust completely. Anyway, lots of the license consumers had been Japanese European round this time; Chinese language nationals had been one other sizable demographic, and finally took the lead.

“Artificially derived cannabinoids” had been within the regulatory crosshairs, and OLCC was tasked with regulating these compounds. OLCC and ODA additionally acquired extra enforcement funding, and launched Operation Desk Rock. It focused largely southern Oregon grows, and predictably discovered a majority of licensed hemp producers rising marijuana. The legislature then met in a one-day particular session to grant $25 million extra to enforcement. I wrote that it “wouldn’t be sufficient,” and it wasn’t.

Sure administrative and prison litigation ensued, although we didn’t have any of that right here within the workplace. On the nationwide stage, the enshittification of hemp was nicely underway, with delta-8 and different intoxicating merchandise being shipped nationwide underneath doubtful shade of legislation, and with scant regulation. We determined as a legislation agency to not take that work, which suggests we determined to depart some huge cash on the desk. I’m nonetheless good with that.

I acquired right into a groove of taking up knowledgeable witness issues in state and federal courtroom, which acquired me again to my litigation roots and was enjoyable. I ended up testifying earlier than a jury in one in every of them, and submitting a report for federal courtroom use in one other. All of those had been disputes on the usual of look after legal professionals within the hashish house. Strikes and gutters as they are saying.

Some huge names made the information in regionally 2021. Dutchie, the hashish e-commerce platform out of Bend, raised a formidable $350 million in a closed Collection D, at a $375 billion worth. Curaleaf, which we later represented on worldwide hashish delivery, was sued up and down for promoting a THC product in CBD packaging—amongst different issues. And GoldenLeaf, the primary Oregon hashish outfit to roll up onto a Canadian inventory trade, got here again from the lifeless to accumulate 5 Residence Grown Oregon shops.

We opened a New York workplace, which was enjoyable and lasted a few years. I felt I used to be spending practically as a lot time “working the legislation agency” as I used to be spending with precise lawyering. I used to be additionally cited by U.S. Senators Cory Booker and Elizabeth Warren in correspondence to U.S. Lawyer Basic Merrick Garland, concerning a plea to decriminalize hashish.

However my favourite lawyering reminiscence, ever, was being invited to talk for NORML down in Key West, Florida that December. After my presentation—however earlier than we went for beers with a choose who had performed himself in The Wire—I sat at a folding desk within the again, subsequent to an older gentleman. He was sporting a tank prime and a Assist the Troops cap. He mentioned nicely carried out and shook my hand, and launched himself as Phil Hirschkop. There was one thing in regards to the interplay; I Googled him underneath the desk; I rattling close to blacked out.

2022

The pandemic period tailwinds petered out, and annual Oregon gross sales fell to underneath $1 billion. Our retail shoppers started to report much less demand for marijuana flower particularly, and adjusted to satisfy rising demand within the edible and cartridge classes. Wholesale pricing dipped under the 2018 market nadir, which was a shock to many operators.

Home Invoice 4016 handed, enacting a sweeping moratorium on new hashish licenses within the state. This was a giant deal! There have been grandfathering provisions and such, however HB 4016 was a proper enactment of what OLCC had been attempting to do—and what business had been clamoring for—for years. Eventually, OLCC had the statutory authority to tug the plug.

OLCC additionally began speaking robust about “unhealthy actors” within the house, and the Fee’s observe of permitting these companies to promote their licenses whereas dealing with revocation proceedings, all however light to black. In live performance with HB 4016, this coverage change appeared knowledgeable by an underlying aim to cull licenses. That mentioned, the State additionally rolled out a restricted social fairness program, the place “certified candidates” may obtain license choice in sure contexts. From what I can inform, it by no means had a lot affect.

OLCC stopped complying with public data requests round this time, pleading organizational and staffing points. After some forwards and backwards, we dragged them earlier than the Oregon DOJ. The system was finally cleaned up, and I’m happy to report that it continues to work because it ought to. The opposite trigger I undertook in 2022 was abuse of service agreements, after seeing a collection of shoppers broken.

Across the county, just a few of our legal professionals had been invited to legislative panels in states hashish regulation. We shared our ideas there and on the weblog. I began going after President Biden a good bit too, for failing to satisfy his marketing campaign guarantees on hashish. He would finally provoke an ill-fated rescheduling course of, and problem some pardons. None of that squared together with his guarantees (“decriminalization”), and it felt like a giant probability missed.

Past hashish, we had been working with psilocybin enterprise underneath Oregon’s Measure 109, and writing about psychedelics on the agency’s Psychedelics Regulation Weblog. There was a resident possession requirement there, just like the early days of hashish, so naturally folks began gaming it. I used to be additionally invited to write down a separate piece for a Harvard Regulation journal on-line. They flew me out to talk to the scholars—one other factor I by no means may have imagined doing.

2023

Oregon gross sales fell once more coming off COVID peaks, and the variety of licensees lastly fell too. Monitoring information, I continued to notice a years-long development of shoppers migrating away from flower, towards edibles and different merchandise. That development continues right now.

I began talking up on behalf of smaller companies regionally early within the 12 months—they had been taking it within the shorts from bigger outfits and from OLCC. And I felt so badly for a few of them.

Issues actually got here to mild when the La Mota scandal broke early within the 12 months. That chain wasn’t paying its share of taxes, or its employees or distributors per widespread allegations. OLCC additionally allow them to skate following main compliance citations that might have sunk most anybody else. La Mota did have the Oregon Secretary of State quietly on payroll, we realized, which led to her ouster from public workplace.

Launching off that scandal, I wrote a essential piece concerning OLCC’s disparate therapy of enormous and small operators. A lawyer named Amy Margolis referred to as me on behalf of Nectar, one other chain operator, requesting I pull the piece. I declined. This resulted in a shabby ethics grievance towards yours actually. The Bar swatted it away; Nectar appealed; and Nectar misplaced once more.

Lastly, one other bigger operator, Chalice, went stomach up and pursued a coordinated receivership exercise with its associated, Canadian collectors. Native belongings had been finally offered off to firm insiders, who began anew. The optics on that one had been additionally horrible, with many small operators getting shafted on funds. Receivership is an equitable treatment, in fact, however the outdated saying remains to be apt: “it’s not a courtroom of justice, it’s a courtroom of legislation.”

For its half, OHA had a tough 12 months, too, after passing a rule to mandate aspergillus testing. The rule was challenged by business, and it was “stayed” pending judicial assessment. Relatively than defend its rule at a listening to, OHA withdrew it, and deserted the trouble. Setting apart any debate on public well being, this was an actual boon for the consolidated Hashish Trade Affiliation of Oregon, the plaintiff in that case.

2024

Gross sales and pricing remained comparatively static, and the business continued to limp alongside. In that respect, Oregon was much like the entire established states, and the western states specifically. Croptober got here in with Oregon’s largest METRC harvest ever at 5,733,288 kilos, which was a full 900,000 kilos greater than the identical month in 2023. Costs predictably suffered, although I’m guessing not all of that weed stayed within the state.

We absorbed a few boutique hashish corporations presently; or elements of them. Like operators and different distributors, hashish legislation corporations had been on the decline. The small corporations had been withering and the bigger corporations—which had entered the house late—had been exiting early. On the consumer aspect, we put a few bigger outfits into receivership.

That fall, OLCC despatched enforcement notices to seven of the eleven testing labs concerning THC inflation. This problem was getting plenty of protection nationally; the native investigation had been going for some time; and the notices had been no shock. We noticed a few labs shutter because of this.

A number of notable guidelines landed in 2024 as nicely. Poll Measure 119 took impact, which required all OLCC retailers, processors and labs to signal a labor peace settlement with a “bona fide labor group.” I used to be relentlessly essential of the Measure on the weblog, calling for a problem. That lastly occurred and BM 119 was declared unconstitutional—that case remains to be up on enchantment. Lastly, we acquired new testing guidelines for hemp, and a invoice making OLCC’s licensing moratorium everlasting.

Federally, we had elections in fact. Elections with penalties. Donald Trump was re-instated as President, and the Republican Celebration claimed majorities in each homes of Congress. This was usually seen as unwelcome information for the hashish business, and for Biden’s flawed rescheduling effort. Every little thing got here to a head just a few weeks into 2025, which is the place I’ll go away off.

2025

If you happen to made it this far, thanks and I applaud you. My 2025 “State of the State” put up on Oregon hashish will be discovered right here. It provides a stable overview of how issues went final 12 months, and the place we stand right now.